beetlejuice

I run it during. I've done a lot of research and most say that this is the most effective approach.

hey bro... I'm in a similar situation. Did a six month cycle with a mix of prop, dbol, npp and tren. The first few weeks I was the most tired I have ever been but lately I have been feeling very good. I'm eating a lot more than I was which might be why.

Tren was probably the culprit... should get better now that he dropped it

Congrats bro

This exactly. Everyone is saying CFC took funds. I don't believe he did. He just dissapeared. I was in the middle of talking to him, he stopped responding,my emails with information were never read(I checked read receipt). Still wasn't after months. I'm not sure how everyone dealt with trading of goods but I'd contact whatever company you did it through and try to get them back...

 

( I have no proof of what happened,just stating my piece)

I had my blood tested and test level was over 4100 on his prop... not sure if it was considered the old or new batch

You look great bro... your hard work certainly shows... did you eat whatever you wanted while away? I'm on vacation now and eating like a fucking pig...

Guys,

I got some partial blood results over the phone. Apparently I need to see the doctor for the full report which I'm doing in a couple of weeks. I have been running a pretty long cycle of Prop / NPP / Tren at 22 weeks. At the time of the test I was only running the Prop at 100 ED.

My cholesterol, and thyroid levels are good.

My liver enzymes were elevated at:

AST 53 (normal 5-39)

ALT 79 (normal 5-52)

My test was 4156 (normal 160-726)

I was expecting my test level to be high but I'm shocked that it is as high as it is. I don't have any values for other hormone levels.

Should I reduce my dosage next time around?

How high are the liver enzymes in your experience? I've been taking the normal liver supps.

Looking great bro! Good luck.

Thanks fellas... your opinions mean a lot. No plans for a show or anything. I'm going away in a few weeks and had a personal goal to get as lean as I could.

Took these pics this morning... I didn't want to be that guy so I tried sneaking them... not a very good job.

I'm finally starting to lose my mid section fat but the lower ab area is really stubborn. I allowed myself to get fat a while ago and wonder if it'll ever tighten up.

I know that there is some personal feel involved but does anyone have some starting recommendations for reducing training volume when coming off cycle?

I've been doing roughly 8 sets per body part with 4 heavy (6-8) reps and 4 lighter (10-12). The tren is absolutely amazing... I just don't get tired (and hardly sleep). My priority will be to get in the heavy work but wanted to see what you guys recommend regarding volume.

I'll be coming off a 16 week prop and 8 week tren cycle. I'm ending the tren today and will run the prop 2 more weeks.

If it was the source's mistake then he should resend.

No direct ab work here. Just heavy basic movements. My ab are well developed just by training heavy with basic movements.

Aroma is better as far as it's negative sides on lipid values and I have had the bloodwork done to prove that. Well at least my lipid values were good and my estrogen was in the normal range.

 

Again, I have never ran caber or bromo so I hate to speak about things that I personally have little to no experience with. I would think that higher levels of estrogen in the body would increase the prolactin sides. By monitoring estrogen levels, those prolactin sides may not present themselves as badly.

 

Prolactin "gyno" is a different animal than estrogen related gyno. At higher doses of tren, I've noticed some puffiness to my nipples as well as some leakage but never any increased size in my glands themselves. As soon as I cut down the tren, then those sides completely subsided.

 

If I were you, I'd just run the lower dose of tren ace and if you begin to present some of the prolactin sides then drop to dose or cut the tren out completely. I don't see much use for caber unless you are running higher doses. That's just my opinion and what I have personally experienced.

This is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for... I'll pick up the aromisin, monitor the tren sides and drop if necessary. Thanks again.

I honestly believe all ancillaries are overused. People post up all these cycles and have it engrained that they NEED them. Hell, most add them blindly without having blood work done to monitor their estradiol levels.

 

AI's, particularly femera, are known to show unfavorable changes in lipid profiles as well. Again, creating more problems by adding unneeded compounds.

 

I would reccomend keeping an AI and SERM on hand at all times but only use in the case that one begins presenting the signs of gyno or edema. I have never ran either during a cycle and never had any problems, then again this is where genetics and individual tolerances come into play as well.

 

I guess my point is that now AI's during cycles are common place where they should only be added when needed.

Thanks for the info... I agree with what you are saying and have been following this model in my limited experience with AAS. Unfortunately I seem to be prone to gyno and had to use arimidex to control it running Test Cyp at 510mg / week. Followed recommended protocol of .5 1st day, .25 ED until symptoms subsided and now running .25 EOD without issues.

I am planning on getting some tren for a future cycle and wanted to understand what else I might need on hand in case tren specific sides arose.

I plan on running tren ace and prop at moderate dosages (350mg and 525mg respectively). Do you think I should have caber on hand for progesterone related gyno? Being gyno prone I expect to need to do something but confused with differing options about tren gyno. Some believe caber is needed others seem to believe that controlling estrogen with an AI is the solution. I was planning on running aromisin if needed over arimidex. From what I've read it should be more effective in use and cost.

What are your thoughts?

Caber will reduce prolactin levels by means of regulating prolactin secretion. So yes, on paper caber should help keep prolactin from rising too high and dopamine too low.

 

This is not something I have tried myself as I don't feel that adding compound after compound to regulate the sides of the previously added compound is a good thing. I fetry to keep things as simple as possible.

 

Caber also has it's own list of sides (along with bromo and prami) that I would rather not deal with.

Great info, thanks.

So when you are on tren you just stick with an AI and keep it at that?

One othe thing I feel that is worth noting is the relationship between trenbolone and prolactin. Prolactin rises in males (I would also assume females) upon the introduction of trenbolone within the body. Prolactin has an inverse relationship to dopamine in the body. So when prolactin rises, dopmaine levels fall.

 

Dompamine is commonly associated with the pleasure system of the brain, providing feelings of enjoyment and reinforcement to motivate a person proactively to perform certain activities. Dopamine is released by naturally rewarding experiences such as food, sex, drugs, and neutral stimuli that become associated with them.

 

In other words, right now when you are at your most vulnerable emotionally, your increased prolactin levels are depressing your dopamine levels. This is leaving you an ever harder up hill climb to positively correct your outlook, feelings, emotions, etc..... or quite simply....it's hard to make you happy.

Would the use of cabergoline on tren serve to cancel this condition?

This is very true!! I got one of the last batches from Negma (parabolan) back in 91 that had already expired, BUT it was still good for me and it looked just like regular Test cyp or whatever other AAS just not anything like Tren's coppery/amber color.

 

Now one of the things that can make Tren Ace lighter in color is if the person who made it (well any Tren A or Tren E will be UG made or homebrewed from pellets or powder cuz there's no human grade Tren maker anywhere in the world) used EO.

 

Maybe that's why you thought the Tren Ace was water based as anything in EO will be extremely thin and even when a "friend" of mine brewed up some Test Prop it looked like water!!!

 

If the stuff isn't made in EO, well it still doesn't mean that it isn't Tren Ace as I remember making some Fina from pellets doing the Iso-prop Alcohol method (it involves using a clear baking dish, iso-prop alcohol, butter knife, yada, yada, yada) which in the end you end up with these little crystals and when combined with the other solvents has a rather darker yellow color.

 

I know that the person you got this from didn't use pellets (well I hope not), but just wanted to add this just to show that Tren Ace isn't always that beautiful amber color (ohh I just got a chubby thinking about Tren:o ).

 

Let us know how it goes brotha!!

Is tren still widely made using fina pellets? Is it from the fina conversion process that people get the tren cough (glue and other shit)?

Absolutely perfect

Process was flawless... turn around unbeatable. 2.5 weeks in and feeling great on the product

Interesting article about expiration dates.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Many Medicines Are Potent Years Past Expiration Dates

By LAURIE P. COHEN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/drug_expiration.htm

Do drugs really stop working after the date stamped on the bottle?

Fifteen years ago, the U. S. military decided to find out. Sitting on a $1 billion stockpile of drugs and facing the daunting process of destroying and replacing its supply every two to three years, the military began a testing program to see if it could extend the life of its inventory.

The testing, conducted by the U. S. Food and Drug Administration, ultimately covered more than 100 drugs, prescription and over-the-counter. The results, never before reported, show that about 90% of them were safe and effective far past their original expiration date, at least one for 15 years past it.

In light of these results, a former director of the testing program, Francis Flaherty, says he has concluded that expiration dates put on by manufacturers typically have no bearing on whether a drug is usable for longer.

Mr. Flaherty notes that a drug maker is required to prove only that a drug is still good on whatever expiration date the company chooses to set. The expiration date doesn't mean, or even suggest, that the drug will stop being effective after that, nor that it will become harmful.

Marketing Issue

"Manufacturers put expiration dates on for marketing, rather than scientific, reasons," says Mr. Flaherty, a pharmacist at the FDA until his retirement last year. "It's not profitable for them to have products on a shelf for 10 years. They want turnover."

The FDA cautions that there isn't enough evidence from the program, which is weighted toward drugs needed during combat and which tests only individual manufacturing batches, to conclude that most drugs in people's medicine cabinets are potent beyond the expiration date. Still, Joel Davis, a former FDA expiration-date compliance chief, says that with a handful of exceptions -- notably nitroglycerin, insulin and some liquid antibiotics -- most drugs are probably as durable as those the agency has tested for the military. "Most drugs degrade very slowly," he says. "In all likelihood, you can take a product you have at home and keep it for many years, especially if it's in the refrigerator."

Manufacturers' View

Drug-industry officials don't dispute the results of the FDA's testing, within what is called the Shelf Life Extension Program. And they acknowledge that expiration dates have a commercial dimension. But they say relatively short shelf lives make sense from a public-safety standpoint, as well.

New, more-beneficial drugs can be brought on the market more easily if the old ones are discarded within a couple of years, they say. Label redesigns work better when consumers don't have earlier versions on hand to create confusion. From the companies' perspective, any liability or safety risk is diminished by limiting the period during which a consumer might misuse or improperly store a drug.

"Two to three years is a very comfortable point of commercial convenience," says Mark van Arandonk, senior director for pharmaceutical development at Pharmacia & Upjohn Inc. "It gives us enough time to put the inventory in warehouses, ship it and ensure it will stay on shelves long enough to get used." But companies uniformly deny any effort to spur sales through planned obsolescence.

Why Not Longer?

Now that the FDA has found that many drugs are still good long after they have supposedly expired, why doesn't it advocate later expiration dates for consumer drugs? One reason is that the consumer market lacks the military's logistical reasons to keep drugs around longer.

Frank Holcombe, associate director of the FDA's office of generic drugs, says that in many cases a manufacturer could extend expiration periods again and again, but to support those extensions, it would have to keep doing stability studies, and keep more in storage than it would like.

Mr. Davis adds: "It's not the job of the FDA to be concerned about a consumer's economic interest." It would be up to Congress to impose changes, he says.

As things stand now, expiration dates get a lot of emphasis. For instance, there is a campaign, co-sponsored by some drug retailers, that urges people to discard pills when they reach the date on the label.

And that date often is even earlier than the one the maker set. That's because when pharmacists dispense a drug in any container other than what it came to them in, they routinely cut the expiration date to just one year after dispensing. Some states even require pharmacists to do this.

Meanwhile, poor countries -- under urging from the World Health Organization -- often reject drug-company donations of much-needed medicines if they are within a year of their expiration dates.

It isn't known how much of the $120 billion-plus spent annually in the U. S. on prescription and over-the-counter medicines goes to replace expired ones. But in a poll done for The Wall Street Journal by NPD Group Inc. of Port Washington, N. Y., 70% of 1,000 respondents said they probably wouldn't take a prescription drug after its expiration date; 72% said the same of an over-the-counter remedy.

"People think that, upon expiration, drugs suddenly turn toxic or lose all their potency," says Philip Alper, professor of medicine at University of California at San Francisco. In his own practice, Dr. Alper says, "I frequently hear -- from patients who can't afford medicine -- that they have thrown away expired drugs." He says companies should be required to test drugs for longer periods and set later expiration dates when results warrant.

Some manufacturers first began putting expiration dates on drugs in the 1960s, although they didn't have to. When the FDA began requiring such dating in 1979, the main effect was to set uniform testing and reporting guidelines. As now required by the FDA, so-called stability testing analyzes the capacity of a drug to maintain its identity, strength, quality and purity for whatever period the manufacturer picks. If the company picks a two-year expiration date, it needn't test beyond that.

Testing for a two-year expiration doesn't initially entail holding a drug for two years. Rather, the drug is tested by subjecting it to extreme heat and humidity for several months, then chemically analyzing each ingredient's identity and strength. (After the date is set and the drug is marketed, testing continues for the full two years.)

The FDA also uses chemical analysis in testing for possible shelf-life extension; it doesn't test on human subjects. Testing conditions are such that any medicine that meets, say, the standards for a two-year expiration date probably lasts longer, the FDA and drug companies agree.

Still Good

Consider aspirin. Bayer AG puts two-year or three-year dates on aspirin and says that it should be discarded after that. Chris Allen, a vice president at the Bayer unit that makes aspirin, says the dating is "pretty conservative"; when Bayer has tested four-year-old aspirin, it remained 100% effective, he says.

So why doesn't Bayer set a four-year expiration date? Because the company often changes packaging, and it undertakes "continuous improvement programs," Mr. Allen says. Each change triggers a need for more expiration-date testing, he says, and testing each time for a four-year life would be impractical.

Bayer has never tested aspirin beyond four years, Mr. Allen says. But Jens Carstensen has. Dr. Carstensen, professor emeritus at the University of Wisconsin's pharmacy school, who wrote what is considered the main text on drug stability, says, "I did a study of different aspirins, and after five years, Bayer was still excellent. Aspirin, if made correctly, is very stable."

Only one report known to the medical community linked an old drug to human toxicity. A 1963 Journal of the American Medical Association article said degraded tetracycline caused kidney damage. Even this study, though, has been challenged by other scientists. Mr. Flaherty says the Shelf Life program encountered no toxicity with tetracycline and typically found batches effective for more than two years beyond their expiration dates.

Plea From the Air Force

The program dates to a U. S. effort begun in 1981 to increase military readiness by buying large quantities of drugs and medical devices for the armed forces. Four years later, more than $1 billion of supplies had been stockpiled. The General Accounting Office audited Air Force troop hospitals in Europe and found many supplies at or near expiration. It warned that by the 1990s, more than $100 million would have to be spent yearly on replacements.

The Air Force Surgeon General's office asked the FDA if it could possibly extend the shelf life of these drugs. The FDA had the equipment for stability testing. And because it had approved the drugs' sale in the first place, it also had manufacturers' data on the testing protocols.

Testing for the Air Force began in late 1985. In the first year, 58 medicines from 137 different manufacturing lots were shipped to the FDA from overseas storage, among them penicillin, lidocaine and Lactated Ringers, an intravenous solution for dehydration. After testing, the FDA extended more than 80% of the expired lots, by an average of 33 months.

In 1992, according to the FDA, more than half of the expired drugs that had been retested in 1985 were still fine. Even now, at least one still is.

Such results came as a revelation for Army Col. George Crawford when he took over military oversight of the program in 1997. He is a pharmacist, but "nobody tells you in pharmacy school that shelf life is about marketing, turnover and profits," he says. (The drug makers don't agree that it is, however.)

How It Works

The military's base for the program is a dingy barracks room in Fort Detrick, Md. There, a group headed by Air Force Lt. Col. Greg Russie, who recently took over from Col. Crawford, tracks drugs that are near expiration at defense facilities all over the world, selecting many for retesting. They are shipped to the FDA, which sends them to its laboratories.

The FDA's lab in Philadelphia recently tested five automatic injectors containing an antidote to chemical poisoning, which were purposely held for three months in conditions even hotter and more humid than the FDA requires in consumer testing of drugs. The FDA tested the drug contained in the injectors, pralidoxime chloride, by separating its ingredients and measuring the strength and quality of each, then applying a computer model to determine whether a shelf-life extension was warranted.

The injectors' original expiration date was November 1985. The FDA had retested them periodically ever since, each time approving their continued use. The batch, made by Ayerst Laboratories, now part of American Home Products Corp.'s Wyeth-Ayerst unit, is 18 years old. It is 15 years beyond the expiration date applied by Ayerst. The FDA found it is still good.

A spokesman for Wyeth-Ayerst says it "uses scientific data to establish expiration dates" and "tries to have the longest possible dating on products that scientific data supports." The company is aware of the FDA retesting program. It says it can't comment specifically on the injectors tested by the FDA.

A Few Fail

Shelf-life extensions are "intentionally conservative," the FDA's Mr. Flaherty told military brass in a 1992 speech. He says that if the agency extended an expiration date by 36 months, it had concluded the lot would retain all of its safety and efficacy for at least 72 months.

A very few drugs aren't retested. The military has found that water-purification tablets and mefloquine hydrochloride, for malaria, routinely fail stability testing beyond their expiration dates, so it has removed them from the program.

Also excluded are large-volume intravenous solutions, such as saline. "We don't like to test those," says Col. Crawford. "Not because we can't, but because it would be politically sensitive if G. I. Joe was lying in bed and saw it had originally expired three years ago."

Mr. Flaherty has said that while he tested a handful of drug batches that didn't even make it to their expiration dates, most drugs were "surprisingly durable." In one instance, he says, drugs labeled for room-temperature storage had been kept for two years in a warehouse in Oman that averaged 135 degrees Fahrenheit in the daytime. Upon expiration, the drugs, which included the local anesthetic lidocaine and atropine, a nerve-gas antidote also used by eye doctors to dilate pupils, "were well within the standards for potency and other quality characteristics," he says.

Stable Molecule

One medicine the FDA has endorsed for extensions is ciprofloxacin hydrochloride tablets, an antibiotic marketed by Bayer as Cipro. One batch had an expiration date of March 1989. More than 9 1/2 years later, the FDA found the tablets still good; it then extended some of them for 18 more months and others for 24 more months.

Albert Poirier, quality-assurance director for Bayer's pharmaceutical division, says he isn't surprised because Cipro "is a stable drug molecule" in tablet form. "We go for a shelf life that will be safest for patients," he says. "We want the drug to be used up within three years. We wouldn't want a patient to have it for 10 years because they'd have an old package insert" that might omit new information or contra-indications and because "we'd have no control over how they'd store the drug during this time."

Another extended drug is Thorazine, a tranquilizer chemically known as chlorpromazine tablets. Batches bearing December 1996 expiration dates -- unused and unopened, as is the case with all drugs evaluated in the Shelf Life program -- were tested in July 1998 and extended for two years. A spokesman for the maker, SmithKline Beecham PLC, says it applies an expiration date 24 months after manufacture. "We think that is the appropriate expiration date," he says. "We don't benefit from short expiration dates."

Some other drugs the FDA has extended at least two years beyond their expiration dates are diazepam, sold as Valium; cimetidine, sold as Tagamet; phenytoin, sold as Dilantin; and the antibiotics tetracycline and penicillin.

Big Savings

On a cost-benefit basis, the program's returns have been huge. The first year, the Air Force paid the FDA $78,000 for testing and saved 59 times that sum by not needing to replace the drugs. After other services joined, the military from 1993 through 1998 spent about $3.9 million on testing and saved $263.4 million on drug expense, according to Lt. Col. Russie.

Says Mr. Flaherty: "We've cost the pharmaceutical companies hundreds of millions of dollars in sales of new stuff to the Department of Defense."

More than 12 years ago, Messrs. Flaherty and Davis explained the program to drug-company chemists at a meeting of the American Association of Pharmaceutical Scientists in Woodbridge, N. J., going into detail about how the FDA decided whether to extend a given expiration date. Mr. Davis concluded by noting how much the U. S. had saved by extending shelf lives instead of "destroying large quantities of still-useful medical products... ."

Mr. Flaherty says the FDA was keenly aware that if its methodology was flawed, or its results incorrect even once, its credibility would be attacked. Yet FDA officials say that during the program's 15 years, drug makers have never objected to any of its procedures or findings. "They may not have liked what we were doing, but they weren't able to challenge it," he says.

The Message to Civilians

While the military is finding it can keep most drugs longer, civilians hear quite a different message. For instance, a campaign called the National Expired and Unused Medication Drive has collected and destroyed 36 tons of drugs since 1991, says its founder, Kathilee Champlin. Ms. Champlin, of Colorado Springs, Colo., says her interest derives from experience working with the elderly and seeing how hard it was for them to keep track of all their medications. She says she wasn't aware of any FDA program to extend drugs' shelf lives.

Her group has gained sponsorship from the some big drug retailers, including Wal-Mart Stores Inc. It sponsors the campaign to be "a good corporate citizen," says Frank Seagrave, vice president of pharmacy merchandising. "We believe that people should dispose of unused prescription medicines a year after they get them," he says, adding that Wal-Mart sometimes gives people a free bottle of vitamins if they bring in expired drugs.

Johnson & Johnson's Janssen Pharmaceutica unit, a drug maker, also sponsors Ms. Champlin's campaign. "We think it's important to educate the public about the risk of taking drugs that are expired and to raise public awareness," says a spokesman for Janssen. Both Wal-Mart and J&J say that supporting the campaign to discard expired drugs has nothing to do with their sales efforts.

Many pharmacists also play a role in shelf lives. The U. S. Pharmacopeia, a not-for-profit scientific group that develops standards for the drug industry, urged in 1985 that pharmacists set expiration dates at no more than one year if they were dispensing drugs in a bottle other than the manufacturer's original packaging. "New containers may let in more moisture and heat than the container the manufacturer used for the stability study," accelerating the drug's degradation, says the USP General Counsel Joseph Valentino.

The recommendation became a USP requirement in 1997. As a result, "the majority of pharmacists shorten the manufacturers' expiration dates" on prescription drugs to one year or less, says Susan Winckler, an official of the American Pharmaceutical Association. In fact, in 17 states, pharmacists now are legally required to do so. Ms. Winckler says shortening the dates makes sense because many people store drugs in moist bathrooms. She says the one-year rule is "motivated by product integrity and not by profit."

Even the FDA has sometimes pushed for throwing out drugs at their expiration date. Last October it co-sponsored, with the National Association of Chain Drugstores and others, a campaign that urged women not to use medications beyond the expiration dates because, as the brochure put it, "they may not work." Mr. Davis says this shows just how obscure the military Shelf Life Extension Program is. "Many people at the FDA have absolutely no idea this program exists," he says.

http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/drug_expiration.htm

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Sides with so much test

How's the acne and hair loss been with so much test?

I did a lot of research on this... it shouldn't be used with deca or fina... or it will have the opposite effect! Will actually cause severe hair loss.

Cool bud... I remember the first time... what a rush.

Good luck-

I like it a lot... NJ